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TWPT: You’ve been
involved with Witchcraft from the early days when most of us had not yet even
started to think about this path as the one we would like to follow, what was
it that drew you to Witchcraft at a time when the public’s perception of being
a Witch was still fairly negative?
MS: Having been brought up in a household that discussed and
debated the mysterious ways of God, Theosophy, Philosophy and any other osophy
or ology connected to the Mysteries; it seemed a natural progression to me,
although my Mother was not at all impressed nor was the Sister Superior of St
Josephs Convent where I was educated. Home was always full of extraordinary
guests’, artists, musicians, priests, and seekers after truth. Alex Sanders had
been a friend of my Mothers since before I was born; they worked together in a
pharmaceutical centre. Alex was a regular visitor to my mothers’ soirée’s.
TWPT:
We speak
rather freely of a Witchcraft community these days but was there a community as
such when you decided to follow the path of Witchcraft in your own life? How
did someone go about contacting this community back then if they decided they
would like to know more about Witchcraft or joining a coven?
MS: In the sixties,
word of mouth found a covenstead, or chance, if you believe in such like, which
made the process of seeking Initiation somehow more magical. Most covens were
extremely secretive. Fear of persecution was real, which made the coven bond
extremely strong and the words ‘Perfect Love and Perfect Trust’ passwords that
were upheld. Persecution could result in job loss, family upset or worse, and
more frequently, violence.
TWPT:
Do you feel that in some ways the persecution or stigma
attached to being a Witch was a filter at times for those who were not as
serious in their desire to follow the Wiccan path?
MS: The magic of the circle has the natural ability to filter
out the majority of those for whom the Craft is a stepping-stone to another
path. I far prefer the natural magic to that of persecution.
TWPT:
When was it
that you first met Alex Sanders and were you already a practicing Witch at that
time? What were some of your first impressions of Alex?
MS: After I was born, Alex and Mother lost contact for several
years. When Alex and my mother re met in a Subud centre in Manchester, Alex predicted my fathers’
imminent death.
I was fourteen when I consciously met Alex at one of my
mothers Sunday soirées. At this time, I had been initiated into the Egyptian
Mysteries. I was not a Witch.
It was not common practice to have a Witch visiting; I was
rather nervous at the thoughts of a real one coming to our home. Alex was
neatly dressed and sported a rather outrageous trilby hat with a feather.
Marvellous bone structure, deep brown eyes, and slightly receding hair. He was
a reserved man who had an aura of holiness about him. His talk of witchcraft
was down to earth and fascinating. His voice was warm northern velvet. Alex was
sincere in his total belief in the ‘Art Magical’. However, Alex’s Magic was
innate and like his mother, he really did not need to be a witch to activate
it. Witchcraft was his chosen religion whereby he could practice the most
natural of gifts.
TWPT:
Did you or
Alex ever have an idea as to the far-reaching consequences of what the both of
you were involved with back then in regards to future Witches and Pagans? Did
you or Alex envision a time in the future that the uninformed stereotypes about
Witches would be replaced with a more accurate portrayal of what constituted a
Witch?
MS: Yes, it was a conscious action; the thought form was
established as early as 1964. Admittedly, I was always the one who was far more
reticent, believing that the Craft was too wonderful and sacred to give to the
world to besmirch; being inexperienced in the Art Magical and the power and
self-preservation the Mysteries maintain. Of course I was young and in love
with Alex and the Mysteries and would have laid my life down for both. I was
easily convinced of the need for the Craft to be acceptable to the man in the
street, for him to be able to approach the Old Priesthood for specialist help
in times of need without the fear of webbed feet etc. More importantly, to stop
the persecution that was ubiquitous at that time. At first, the witchcraft
publicity had shock value, then it was titillation, and now after all these
years, it is in the main acceptable. Some of that time was sheer hell,
persecution in the form of stone throwing, name calling, job sacking and house
firing were no stranger to the witch who had dared to proclaim their beliefs
publicly.
TWPT:
What were
the two of you hoping to accomplish by being out in the open like you were? In
the long run what affect did the two of you have on the Witchcraft community of
those early days and how did that affect the Witchcraft community of the
present day?
MS: For those who were seeking Initiation it was difficult to
find a group that was prepared to talk openly about their work and worship.
There was much activity in the ‘Black hand Gang’ department within the Craft,
which was demeaning. I think Alex and I rather ousted the petty bickering that
existed between Covenstead’s, knocked the egos into base, and gave them
something to talk about and leave others less capable alone.
Today, far more humour exists; sharing of knowledge,
expansion of ritual techniques and consideration for the evolution that takes
place within each of us.
TWPT:
For those who may not be familiar with the term could you
tell us about the Black Hand Gang and what that means.
MS: We often referred to those groups who were in the habit of
being secretive in a way that suggested that they were the one and only
powerful, knowledgeable, magical witches as ‘the black hand gang’ not a
flattering comment!
TWPT:
How did you
handle the publicity that came with being out of the closet in those days? Was
all of the publicity you received negative or were there some who reported
accurately about Witchcraft and its practitioners even then?
MS: No matter if the
publicity was negative or accurate reporting, the reaction was enormous. It was
all a little frightening; there were at least ten sack loads of mail every
week; people wanting magical help, others in need of a way to worship the
Goddess without Initiation. There were those who were seeking Initiation and
training in the Priesthood of the Craft. It was almost as though modern man was
given permission to practise the way of the heart rather than that of
judgemental orthodox religion. Of course, there were those who would never
suffer a Witch to live; I’m still here!
TWPT:
Where did
the name King of the Witches come from in reference to Alex? Did this name draw
criticism from others who were following the Witchcraft path at that time?
MS: The Coven obviously grew quickly and many Witches from other
covens and traditions made themselves known to us. It became clear to them that
Alex had the showmanship, knowledge, and spirit to bring the Craft into present
consciousness. The ritual was devised to crown him ‘King of the Witches’ It was
he that would be sacrificed and often was. There were those in the Craft who
considered him an upstart, Alex was the first to admit they were right, and
entitled to their opinion. Without the lords of opposition, it would all have
been without power.
TWPT:
I’m sure
that there were very few books published in relation to what’s available now but
were there any written materials that you used for researching Witchcraft at
the beginning. Where were these books available at the time?
MS: Shops like Watkins and Atlantis were active in the sixties;
libraries and the rare find on bookstalls were a delight. We loved Mathers,
Eliphas Levi, some of Crowley
and definitely Dion Fortune. Actually, the list is endless. Although lots of
nonsense books were available on supposed Craft activities, ritual/ceremonial
magic fascinated many of our Covens who went on to specialise in their own
fields of study.
TWPT:
Was there
communication between those who might be called leaders of the early Witchcraft
community? (i.e. Raymond Buckland, ,Doreen Valiente, Gerald Gardner, The
Farrars, Sybil Leek etc.) I realize that the internet and quick access via
e-mail didn’t exist at the time but were there conversations by phone or
traditional letters that passed between those who were perceived as leaders
discussing the future of Witchcraft or comparing notes as to what was going on
in their locality?
MS: In 1967 when we moved to London, the then crème de la crème in occult
society descended on us in force and not too kindly. It was as if they wanted
to keep us out of the limelight. Some threatened, others bullied and some like
Sybil Leek were supportive. Covens rarely contacted one another, abiding by the
old law that a three-mile radius should be between covens and never the twain
should meet except for the rare Grand Sabbats.
By this time, we couldn’t have stopped the media coverage
even if we had wanted to. The press used us when news was thin on the ground
and slowly the journalists wanted a good story rather than sensationalism.
It was in the early seventies that ‘The Temple of the
Mother’, my coven in Notting hill gate, started to advocate Temple
pilgrimages to the sacred sites in Britain enabling Grand Sabbats to
occur. The largest and last of these Grand Sabbats was held in Glastonbury in the eighties. There were so
many Witches from all over the world and different traditions; it was obvious
that it would have to become commercial to cover safety issues etc. The magic
becomes thin when this happens.
TWPT:
Did either of
you consciously think that you were forming a tradition that would be followed
for years to come during those early years?
MS: No; When Stewart Farrar and Alex collaborated on the book
‘What Witches Do’, Stewart asked what Witches who were initiated via our Covens
should be called; after much discussion, he came up with ‘Alexandrian’ which
both Alex and I rather liked. Before this time we were very happy to be called
Witches.
TWPT:
Everyone
seems to focus on Alex and his contributions so I wanted to ask about what kind
of role you played during the 60’s and 70’s? How much of what was going on was
Alex and how much was Maxine?
MS: My job was to represent the Goddess.
TWPT:
Why was it
that the two of you faced opposition to your making the Craft public from those
more traditional facets of the community? What were your thoughts about
bringing these hidden truths to a larger audience?
MS: The Craft is a mystery religion and quite bluntly, the
Matriarchs of the time believed that the Craft would become blemished if it was
made public and, to a degree, I agreed with them. However, many were entitled
to Initiation and truth, including numerous great writers and teachers of
today.
TWPT:
Is there still the concern in your mind that there will be
something missing in the Craft if it continues to become more and more open?
Does it still qualify as a mystery religion with so many books published,
gatherings attended, and conferences held etc each year?
MS: Of course, the practise of the Craft is still a Mystery
religion; no matter how many books written, lectures given, or conferences
held. It is the personal application, experience, worship, and practise of the
magic that can only be brought into the realms of being through
understanding.
TWPT:
What are your
memories of Stewart Farrar and his time spent with your coven during the time
leading up to his initiation? Was it apparent to you that he and Janet were
destined to bring even more folks to Witchcraft through their writings and
their books in the coming years?
MS: Stewart was a charming man, a sincere student with an active
flexible mind. I liked him enormously! Alex enjoyed the company of
intellectuals and academics, always with a view to future writers on the
subject of the Craft, the Goddess, and Truth. One of Alex’s sayings was ‘There
is only truth on the altars of the Craft’ hence, the light that burns in all
the Temples of
the Mother.
TWPT:
After you
separated from Alex you continued to work in the Wiccan community, tell me
about your own vision for what you wanted to accomplish in your teachings and
through your coven when you were on your own.
MS: We were both
devastated by our separation and continued to fight, love, and work together
until Alex died. However, the separation brought about an opening that I had
never envisaged. I enjoyed teaching ceremonial magic and found that there was a
great demand for this aspect of the Craft. Also the way of the Inner Mysteries,
that brings about self-discipline and aspiration to be a part of the ‘Great
Work’.
Initiation does
not bring peace; it intensifies the quest for knowledge and enlightenment. To
be part of an actively conscious magical group that creates the magic circle of
Power, gives one an exquisite sense of the Universe. However, it takes selfish
unselfishness to become a centre of expression for the Primal Will-to-Good,
which eternally creates and sustains the Universe!
TWPT:
Having seen
the community evolve through several decades, what are your thoughts on how
things are going. Is the Wiccan religion about where it should be for the
length of time that it has been in existence? Any changes in Wicca that you
would like to see occur in the years to come?
MS: The changes and evolution within the Craft are wonderful,
indeed if there were no differences or transmutations there would be no
advances. Diversity has to be the way of the Craft. Mother Earth is different
from valley to vale making each one of us vibrate, interact, and practise the’
Art Magical’ in a totally individual way.
TWPT:
From your
perspective now, what has been the benefit of the Alexandrian tradition over
the years and how has it changed since those early days? Is it still a vital
force in the continuing evolution of Witchcraft even now?
MS: ‘If it works use it’ Alexandrians have been taught to dare
to do just that, which has broken the stranglehold that a few fuddy-duddies had
on the early Craft. All traditions have benefited from that!
Witchcraft is a religion that epitomises vital life force
that enables us to worship and utilise it in a way that suits us as Initiates.
I doubt that anyone can question the Power of Life. Does it really matter what
Tradition, as long as it works!
TWPT:
Looking back
over all the students you have taught and the many initiations you have
performed over the years is there a satisfaction in what you have accomplished.
Do you stay in touch with all of your one-time students and initiates to see
how they are doing or is that simply impossible given the numbers involved?
MS: Tremendous
satisfaction in the experiences, magical and otherwise. As for accomplishments, well, that is for others
to judge and have their opinions.
There are students
who stay in contact but not for any reason other than the bond that formed
during their training. Not all of my students liked me, which was of no
importance; I was their teacher; the responsibility of that privileged position
was to endeavour to direct the student towards their full potential, whatever
their path.
TWPT:
I see that
you have found the internet after stumbling across your website in one of my
searches, as someone who started when there was practically no way to keep in
touch with other Witches other than letters, what are your thoughts on how the
internet has changed the face of what Wicca was and what it will likely become?
MS: It took much
coercion to persuade me that a website would be a good thing, I’m still not
certain!
Sometimes I think
the Craft has become just a little too social but if this means that knowledge
is shared and put to good use, well, and good. I believe there are many aspects
of the Craft; some groups are open whilst others are closed some sky clad some
robed. We are drawn to the priesthood that works for our individual evolution.
TWPT:
What are the dangers of making the Craft into a social
gathering as opposed to focusing on the spiritual aspects? How can you make
sure that your individual path, your group, or your coven are keeping the focus
on what needs to happen?
MS: There is nothing wrong with social gatherings as long as
they are recognised as that. Grand Sabbats have an aspect of the rite, which
enable us collective sharing of thought. Once that thought/power becomes too
big, it dissipates; not everyone is able to stay focussed! A Circle is only as powerful as it’s
weakest Initiate, hence the necessity for training in the practicalities of the
Craft. Today it seems that many forget that Power can and does corrupt, and on
the mundane level causes overactive earthly ego, unhealthy bickering,
disruptive gossip, and very little joy.
The Coven Scribe was always the finest way of knowing where
the work has been, the achievements and the experiments successes and failures.
The Coven of the Temple of the Mother would
change Scribe every three months to keep an accurate and balanced perspective
on all the comings and goings within the Temple;
at this time, the past three months work would be analysed. This would enable
the Teachers within the group to assess each Initiate, the magic’s and its
results if it were within its time limits, and readjust future workings
accordingly. The records kept by these Scribes go back over forty years, they
are a Covens most treasured possession for therein lies visual evaluation of
the mistakes that should be avoided. The need for constant self-analysis is
natural to every worthwhile Initiate.
TWPT:
Now that you
no longer teach, do you miss taking new initiates to the point that they can
stand on their own and lead others? Do you still go out and speak at public
events or gatherings on occasion?
MS: Last year I took part in my last 2nd and 3rd Initiation; it
was wonderful. No matter how much I miss the power of a covenstead circle, it
is my time to gain knowledge through a different form of expression within the
realms of the Craft.
Today there are wonderful Initiates that have the vigour and
vitality of youth who have taken on the privileged mantle of Teacher.
It is
strange that people believe I am an experienced public speaker. I am a priestess of the Goddess. Initiated,
Consecrated, and dedicated to the work of the Craft. That initiation and
consecration at no point prepared, taught or inspired in me a desire to
practise the art of public speaking and even though I have spoken to a few
gentle audiences; It really does not get any easier!
Occasionally, when the cottage needs some maintenance work
doing, the gods in their might, arrange for a me to speak to friendly pagan
audiences, this makes it possible for me to attend to these necessities.
I have often thought that those who speak publicly and
regularly on Witchcraft matters, cannot have the time to put their words into
practise; I do hope this will not happen to me.
TWPT:
As a closing
question for this interview, do you have any advice for those who are going
through tough times with their family, friends or the public in general about
the path that they have chosen to walk? Do you have some thoughts you’d like to
share with any of your students or initiates that might be reading this
interview somewhere in the world?
MS: Experience has taught me that it is by my actions that I am
known and remembered; once one’s feet are on the path of the Initiate, this
fact is magnified many fold. The best Initiates were those who made mistakes
and never stopped asking questions. Good manners cost nothing and are never
criticised.
Wow! In retrospect, it was all worth it; life is brilliant!
Blessed Be
TWPT:
Thank you for taking the time to talk to us here
at TWPT and I wish you much success as you continue
along your path.
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